The flip side of the price tag attacks
There was a comment on the post regarding price tag attacks that deserves another post to answer it so that I can be more sure that you all will see it. Regarding Wednesday night's post on the government's war on the 'far right,' Independent Patriot wrote: What is sad about this is that apparently democracy doesn't mean anything to the "price taggers.". In a democratic society, the government makes a decision If you do not like the decisions you vote the government out. If the majority doesn't agree with you...too bad. Its how it works. You can't thug your way into getting people to agree with you. It's what fascists do not democracies. If Jerusalem decides to leave Judea and Samaria then that is how a democracy works. You cannot use violence because you don't get your way, no matter how wrong you think the decision.There are a couple of points that deserve a response. First, regarding the comments about a democratic society. It is important to note here that the 'outposts' that are being razed were established, in most cases, with the approval and financing of the Israeli government. Moreover, if the government or the Knesset were to vote on them today, these outposts would not be razed. They are being razed pursuant to Supreme Court orders, and if you read my posts regarding the court and its selection process, it is a strain to call it a democratic institution. People on the Right here feel that they have no say in the makeup of the Supreme Court - and for good reason.
Also if these "terrorists" are endangering the lives of IDF members then they deserve to get shot if they don't stop. If they cared about Jewish lives themselves they wouldn't put Jewish lives at risk.So their supporters shouldn't pull the "don't hurt your fellow Jews" shtick unless they plan to apply it both ways and turn in those that break the law.
Second, even if it's true that the rioters are endangering lives (and I suspect those reports in the mainstream media are exaggerated), there are a lot of responses that are possible short of shooting people. How often does the IDF open fire on the Leftist demonstrators and on the 'Palestinians' (especially given that in the case of the 'Palestinians' there is a total lack of concern for Jewish lives)? What about all the non-violent means of riot control that the IDF has in its arsenal (like the screech and the skunk bomb)? Why were those not available at that base on Tuesday morning?
I'm not saying that it's justified or justifiable for revenants to place the lives of IDF soldiers in danger. It's not. But there are reactions short of shooting people that are within the realm of possibility.
It's also important to at least be aware of the background to these protests. The Supreme Court has turned itself into a dictatorship, and that's not going to be sustainable for long.
The price tag attacks are vandalism at their core and should be treated as such. Exaggerating them into an attempt to overthrow a democratically elected government is only going to make things worse.
Labels: IDF, price tag attacks, Supreme Court
posted by Carl in Jerusalem @ 8:32 AM
15 Comments:
Is there absolute proof that the Price Tag vandalism is actually carried out by the Right? Perhaps we should consider that it might be an ongoing provocation by the Left. We have seen vandalism and worse carried by Arabs on their own. So why not the Left?
It is my understanding that a military outpost was attacked and its officers assaulted. How is that just vandalism?
I reiterate my main point...in a democracy you use democratic means to change the law. If you disapprove of the way the Supreme Court is appointed get your legislators to change the law. If the government is not following through on what it promised change the govenmnt. If nothing you want happens then you need to accept it. The majority rules in a democracy abolutely unless you have constitutional safeguards protecing the voice of minority opnions like we do here in the US. But another point no matter what..You do not have the right to break the law because you disagree with the govenment
One more important point if you dont mind...I am not as some have implied a leftist but an indepndent, beholdent to no political party or extreme. I belive in right, wrong and the hard work inherent in a democracy. And I dont have to live in Israel to know that it bodes an ill wind if there are those among the Israeli populace who think they can subvert the rule of law by acting out with violence because they dont get their way and they are given a free pass for their actions.
The only army currently tasked with shooting its citizens is in Assad's Syria.
The only other time Israel shot its citizen Jews was the Altalena.
While the Jerusalem post reports that the army "raised two structures", what the army really did was destroy two families' homes. The use of euphemisms is designed to cover the nastiness of the court orders.
There are agent-provocateurs that have been active in these sorts of matters at the behest of the government in the past. Such tactics resulted in the loss of an Israeli prime minister.
In the United States there are laws that prevent the army from suppressing its own people. There is something particularly Medieval about a government sending its army to kill its own citizens. Such events between Jews would be particularly regrettable given the IDF's standing orders to avoid opening fire against Arabs unless they deem their lives to be in danger. As far as I can tell from reports, all that happened was property damage.
All that being said, any momentary release of anger on the part of the Jewish residents plays into the hands of the government and needs to be characterized as stupid and attributed in part to testosterone poisoning, rather than clear political thinking.
Dear Independent Patriot,
Which one historic figure am I quoting below (no searching, please - just say or guess or give up):
"The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government."
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"When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty."
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"What country can preserve its liberties if its rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance?"
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"The majority, oppressing an individual, is guilty of a crime, abuses its strength, and by acting on the law of the strongest breaks up the foundations of society."
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"When wrongs are pressed because it is believed they will be borne, resistance becomes morality."
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"The price of freedom is eternal vigilance."
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"An elective despotism was not the government we fought for."
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"All tyranny needs to gain a foothold is for people of good conscience to remain silent."
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It is an understatement to say that the Jews of Judea and Samaria have been targets of harassment, tyranny and persecution by the Israeli government for more than 20 years now.
I can't blame them.
True, democracy is only a good thing in the context of a government which is strictly limited to enumerated powers. Otherwise it's the two wolves and a sheep voting on what to have for dinner.
Independent Patriot writes: "I reiterate my main point...in a democracy you use democratic means to change the law. If you disapprove of the way the Supreme Court is appointed get your legislators to change the law. If the government is not following through on what it promised change the govenmnt. If nothing you want happens then you need to accept it."
You apparently assume that we can just 'vote the bums out.' Sadly, that is not the case, and our government is not truly representative. We vote for parties, not for Knesset members, and most of us have little or no say in who those parties send to the Knesset. Even within the parties, there is cheating to keep certain people and viewpoints out. Search site:IsraelMatzav.blogspot.com Feiglin in Google for some example.
Shy Guy,
Must be Thomas Jefferson in the Federalist Papers (and that was without looking or searching anywhere).
Carl- Thomas Jefferson did not write the federalist papers. It was John Jay, James Madison, and Alexander Hamilton that wrote FPs. But many of the quotes are Jefferson as they are Franklin and other founding fathers. And Carl. I have read your blog everyday for years.I happen to be a big fan even though quite frankly I believe your lack of making these "vandals" accountable for their actions bodes an ill wind for the Jewish State.
One more point- can't you get involved in the political process if you don't like what is going on? Isn't it sometimes the small parties in Israel that actually control the creation of a government? Israel is a democracy. Learn to work the system and then change what you don't like. Fix it from within if you have to. Sorry kvetching without legal political action is still just kvetching.
Shy Guy- The government of Israel is not a tyrannical government where you "raise" arms to destroy the government and set yourself free from its rule. To somehow compare the government in Jerusalem to the tyranny of King GeorgeIII and the illegal settler actions to those of the founding fathers is rather disingenuous.
jlevy- Governments fire on their people all the time. In the US we have the police who are an armed military force. What you reference is wholesale slaughter of civilians which is not the same thing as soldiers protecting themselves from attack by the civilian population.That there are standing orders to not shoot attacking Palestinians seems rather idiotic. I wonder when a soldier gives up his right to protect himself.
Furthermore, the Altalena was the first salvo in a civil war and the Haganah fired when the Irgun refused BG's standing orders to recognize Haganah authority. Luckily for Israel there was only one battle of this civil war and that was simply because Begin wouldn't' have one Jew fight another. As I said to Carl, it does not bode well that there are "settler" groups who support these "vandals" actions and that they think they can take the law into their own hands and that there are people who support their actions and make excuses for them. It is not hard to extrapolate the end scenario and it should frighten everyone.
BTW if you live in the US I would be very watchful because posse comatatis is under direct attack as well as the abrogation of habeaus corpus if some laws get passed that are before Congress. Seems to me that SCOTUS is going to be very busy in the next few years. I am not sure where you get the idea that the army cannot fire on Americans. When martial law is declared, as it was in New Orleans, the national guard (which you could call the present version of the militia) was given permission to shoot looters and others committing crimes.
I agree with Carl that this type of Euro party list elections ends up allowing the "bums" to stay in.
And, for sure, Independent Patriot will have a rant on his computer that he can cut and paste here in the comments that will clamor for the Occupy #OWS protestors to be shot when they go up against the police rather than getting involved in the electoral process. And the #OWS people actually can effectuate a process of voting the bums out. So when the Time Mag people of the year Protestors in the U.S. "battle" the police as their marxist union thug bosses are training them up to do, publish it far and wide that this open minded "Independent Patriot" wants them to receive the death penalty, with no arrest, charges, lawyer, trial... no due process of law whatsoever. If #OWS goes up against the police, Independent Patriot advocates that they be shot onsite.
PS At the risk of endlessly repeating myself, my stomach turns over when people try to fight their own police or military... Ugh.
Independent Patriot writes: "One more point- can't you get involved in the political process if you don't like what is going on? Isn't it sometimes the small parties in Israel that actually control the creation of a government? Israel is a democracy. Learn to work the system and then change what you don't like. Fix it from within if you have to. Sorry kvetching without legal political action is still just kvetching."
What do you think Manhigut Yehudit is about? Moshe Feiglin reached the conclusion that the only way the true Right would ever gain a voice would be to gain control of one of the big parties, and he chose to make his fight in the Likud, which claims to be a Rightist party.
Since you describe yourself as a fan of my blog, I am sure you read here how Feiglin was pushed down by Prime Minister Netanyahu from a realistic spot (20) to an unrealistic spot (36) before the 2008 elections http://israelmatzav.blogspot.com/2008/12/sorry-bibi-and-moshe-you-just-lost-my.html, and I am sure you read three weeks ago how Netanyahu is changing the rules to ensure that Feiglin does not gain control of the party in the upcoming primaries - and is shutting out the revenants in the process. http://israelmatzav.blogspot.com/2011/11/netanyahu-playing-dirty-in-likud-again.html. How do we confront this duplicity? That's why you see people out in the streets demonstrating. They feel they have no voice.
As to forming a new party, I don't think you realize just how impossible it is to break into the political system here. Rabbi Meir Kahane did it, and his party was banned from the election in 1988 as 'racist' when the branja saw surveys showing he could get 10% of the vote (today, I suspect it would be much more).
Sunlight- where did i eve say thst ows protestors can be shot? I refernced bills that would allow for the end of habeaus corpus, posse comitatis in the US. I also referenced laws that governed during katrina and when and if police are entitled to defend themselves. You apparently have no ideas whatnthese lws happen to be and how they are in plave to protect thempopulsce. I would suggestbyou actusllynread teh federslists papers refernced in these comments.
Lastly but more imprtantly I am Not male.I am female. If you actually had ever bothered to read my blog you would have known that.
Carl- kahane was aracist who called for the expulsion of legal citizens of israel because they are arab. He was also a violent agitator in the US who was linked to terrorist attacks in this country. He is no hero of the Jewish people but an embarrasment.
Independent Patriot,
Kahane was a realist who recognized that the Arabs would never be satisfied with a Jewish state with a Jewish flag. He recognized that HaTikva was not the story of the Arabs. Everything he predicted has come true or is seemingly on its way to coming true.
If you have not seen it already, I suggest that you watch this 1984 video of Kahane making mincemeat of a young Ehud Olmert on Ted Koppel's Nightline. http://israelmatzav.blogspot.com/2010/10/1000-gather-to-mark-kahane-yahrtzeit.html
In the video, it's Olmert who's the racist - not Kahane. Olmert is practicing the soft prejudice of diminished expectations for non-Jewish non-whites, and it's Kahane who is saying that we have to see the Arabs as having self-respect and recognize that they will never accept a Jewish state.
Who won the debate? Whom has history proven correct? I dare you to say that it's Olmert.
These whining leftists are the same people who defend riots in the streets, random arson and shop smashing when they're the ones doing it at WTO summit meetings around the world. If anything, the price tags are exactly the kind of 'proportionality' the Arabs and their EU handlers have demanded for years.
Video is now private
This link works
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S69J2Ews57Y
Moshe Feiglin: Get the Settlers
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