Political correctness runs rampant again
On Monday, Rabbi Dov Lior of Kiryat Arba was arrested and taken for questioning. His alleged 'crime' was endorsing a book that deals with the Jewish law issues involved in killing enemy civilians during wartime. The book came to the politically incorrect conclusion that the killing of enemy civilians in wartime is sometimes permitted.Leaving aside for a minute whether a rabbi's endorsement of a book means that he agrees with everything in it, or is anything more than an exercise of free speech through the expression of an opinion, David Rubin writes that the politically correct legal establishment is avoiding the fact that in times of war, the IDF sometimes has to and does use lethal force against enemy 'civilians.'
Let us ask the seemingly forbidden question: Could it be that perhaps both the authors and the endorsers are correct in their analysis of the need for certain actions to defend freedom in wartime?Read the whole thing.
Is it possible that Israel is not the only nation with that particular need for self-preservation?
The authors were referring specifically to Israel’s defense, and therefore, they referred to “non-Jewish” civilians as a term for enemy civilians. Notable parallels can be drawn in major global conflicts for the cause of freedom, when civilians have been killed, and not accidentally.
There have been many instances throughout history in which righteous nations fought against tyranny and enemy civilians were killed in the process. The most glaring example was WWII, when the allied forces bombed the heavily populated German cities of Berlin and Dresden, knowing that many innocent civilians would be killed. Approximately 300,000 civilians were actually killed in these air raids.
Was this a crime? Was this perceived as a violation of German human rights? Certainly not! It was understood by the Allies that this was an effective tool in an overall strategy to defeat the enemy.
And I haven't even mentioned Hiroshima and Nagasaki!
In a time of war, it is certainly permissible. There was not even massive dropping of leaflets as in Gaza, warning the “innocent civilians” that the American, French, Russian, or British pilots would soon be attacking, and thereby ruining the element of surprise, so vital in wartime.
It was clearly understood that in wartime, enemy civilians would be hurt, and not necessariy accidentally, thereby preserving the lives of the valiant soldiers who were fighting on the right side of this most moral battle.
We Jews need to put an end to our self-immolation, as our enemies cynically hide behind civilians, no doubt amused by our unwarranted guilt. Enemies deserve to be defeated, and defeated handily.
Labels: civilian casualties, freedom of speech, Rabbi Dov Lior
posted by Carl in Jerusalem @ 9:40 PM
16 Comments:
This isn't about political correctness though is it?
It's about who decides who merits the death sentence. Is it Rabbi Lior who can decide this or is the police and courts?
In any case, wasn't it a ruling like this that led to Yygl Amir justifying his murdering President Rabin, because Rabin ceded territory?
It won't end at killing enemy civilians. It will extend to all those who are seen as collaberating or being "kapos" or "stupid jews" or whatever else label is applied to the majority left wing Israeli's who do support ceding territory for peace.
Also, David Rubin's comparison was a false one. All the examples he used, had political sanction. The German, Hiroshima and Nazi examples of killing civilians were decided by their respective government leaders, not by their religious leaders.
Rabbi Lior merely approbated a book. From this came the assumption he agreed with everything in it.
The "King's Torah," by the way, discusses how enemy civilians should be dealt with in war time. This is not something for Shai Nitzan and the Israeli Left to decide that because they don't agree with a Torah discussion, an eminent rabbi needs to be arrested and quizzed for his views.
Its quite frankly none of their business. And unless they have proof it goes merely beyond expressing a politically incorrect opinion, its also not a court's province to judge the value of it.
Chayma, the ignoramus, blathers nonsense again.
The book does not advocate vigilante death squads of any sort. Rav Lior did nothing more than give an acknowledgement letter to the Torah scholar qualifications of the author.
What killed Yitzchak Rabin was Rabin's own Shabak division's attempts to incriminate the right by entrapment. Try finding out what the "Eyal" organization was and who is "Avishai Raviv". May Rabin rot in hell.
You stupid Muslima.
Rabbi Lior does not have a mandate to determine who deserves to die and who doesn't. But he DOES have a right to express his opinion in writing or orally.
That's what "Freedom of Speech" is all about, Charlie Brown.
Exactly. Freedom of speech is about the right to offend people. If you want a society where every agrees with you, it isn't a democracy.
The racism law in Israel is undemocratic and should be repealed. Its not the place of police and prosecutors to monitor forbidden thoughts. Laws should exist to punish actions not what people think.
I find anti-Semitism and Holocaust Denial abhorrent but I don't advocate imprisoning someone for having a bad thought about Jews. Where do you draw the line?
If someone seeks to harm others, then throw the book at him but if all they do is express an opinion, that's their right no matter how stupid or offensive it might seem to others.
I think the corrective to harmful views is more not less free speech. Intelligent people can judge those views for themselves without a government minder telling its forbidden for them to hear them.
Next!
@ Shy Guy
“The book does not advocate vigilante death squads of any sort.”
But it can incite others to interpret it as doing so. That is what Yygl Amir and other right wing extremists did and will do.
Raviv and Eyal are CATALYSTS at best, if anything, a cynic may just dismiss them as side props. Yygl Amir had tried and failed, how many times before finally murdering Rabin? At least twice previously. His brother Hagai helped him that night.
No doubt Yygl Amir and other extremists were under surveilllance by Shabak or Shin Bet. Be that as it may, what are you trying to say here? That he did not have the free will to do what he did and Raviv had taken over his brain? Or that because Yygal was being monitored by the security services (Eyal was probably set up to monitor the likes of Yygl), the right wing extremists can grab that as a lifeline, and pretend it was a set up of some sort so that they can divert attention AWAY from his nationalist religious doctrines?
The only relevency here, is that Ygal was certified perfectly sane and that he made a decision to murder based on his interpretation of religious rulings. Except that he didn’t consider it murder. He believed he was acting on God’s orders. Yygal Amir’s own words at his trial where he attempts to justify his decision to murder Rabin were:
"I didn't care whether he died that night ... or whether he was paralyzed and couldn't function as prime minister anymore, it was all the same to me... If there was no alternative, then he should die... I have no regrets about what I did."
You stupid Muslima.
Stick to "stupid jews"!
Muslima's have genius level IQ's. It's the Taqiyya that makes us appear stupid :D
By the way, you have unfinished business in the honour thread.
@ Chana,
Yes free speech is fine, except where it crosses into incitement, which is where this is headed.
Do you, NormanF and Shy Guy agree with what Rabbi Lior said :
'Gentile sperm leads to barbaric offspring'
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4006385,00.html
"Sefer HaChinuch (a book of Jewish law) states that the character traits of the father pass on to the son," he said in the lecture. "If the father in not Jewish, what character traits could he have? Traits of cruelty, of barbarism! These are not traits that characterize the people of Israel."
Lior added identified Jews as merciful, shy and charitable – qualities that he claimed could be inherited. "A person born to Jewish parents, even if they weren't raised on the Torah – there are things that are passed on (to him) in the blood, it's genetic," he explained. "If the father is a gentile, then the child is deprived of these things.
"I even read in books that sometimes the crime, the difficult traits, the bitterness – a child that comes from these traits, it's no surprise that he won't have the qualities that characterize the people of Israel," he added.
If your answer is yes, tell me, how do you account for all of the above sins in Jews are are wholly Jewish?
How do you account for all these qualities in non Jews?
Chayma,
The quote is that Jews are merciful, bashful and purveyors of good deeds. If someone acts in a manner that contradicts those three characteristics (e.g. brazen cruelty of the sort going on in much of the Arab world today), we are advised to look into his lineage, and if we look hard enough, we will find non-Jewish ancestry.
And Avishai Raviv and his Eyal group were far from a side show. I've posted all the videos on this blog and an extensive analysis from a doctor who saw all the medical reports (search under "Dr. Josh"). Bottom line is that while Amir tried to kill Rabin that night, he was manipulated into doing so by a Shabak (GSS) operative, and he probably failed. But go read and watch the evidence.
As in the past, I recommend folks get hold of a copy of the DVD, Yitzhak Rabin - An Unclosed Case, by Israeli reporter Naftali Glicksberg.
Glicksberg's examination of the original trial evidence, loaned to him from Israel's national archives, was a shock to Glicksberg. You'll be shocked, too.
Carl
we are advised to look into his lineage, and if we look hard enough, we will find non-Jewish ancestry.
That doesn't explain why non Jews have the qualities that Lior says only Jews are supposed to have. And why all Halachically conceived Jews are not exhibiting all those qualities, and refraining from the sins he mentioned. Where was Mother Teresa’s Jewish ancestry? And I can give plenty of other examples..
It isn’t genes that makes a character. Liors explanations don’t make sense.
contradicts those three characteristics (e.g. brazen cruelty of the sort going on in much of the Arab world today),
The same brazen cruelty doesn’t exist in other genes or Jewish lineage? The same can apply in reverse. If you look hard enough into any Arab ancestry you will find Jewish genes there I’m sure. The first converts to Islam in Medina were Jewish converts, known as Ansars (who by the way were still considered Jews by their own, hence they were known as Ansars).
saw all the medical reports (search under "Dr. Josh"). Bottom line is that while Amir tried to kill Rabin that night, he was manipulated into doing so by a Shabak (GSS) operative, and he probably failed. But go read and watch the evidence.
I don’t doubt there were others with differing agenda's who WANTED Yygl Amir to do it, Shabak operatives or not, (I’ve even heard some people blame Shimon Peres for masterminding it) but it doesn’t absolve Amir of his own WILL to do it. He had the intent. He said he had tried to twice before but God didn’t give him the signal and he didn’t do it then. He did it that night after God said him the signal.
If Amir was manipulated, why is he saying what he did above at his own trial regardless of what Shabak wanted, even if we assume he was set up?
That others wanted him to do it, doesn't absolve him of his own will and intent to do it, according to his own words.
Has Yygl Amir ever said he did not intend to do it, and was set up by Shabak? To my knowledge he brags about and is proud of what he did. He has no remorse.
Carl
The quote is that Jews are merciful, bashful and purveyors of good deeds. If someone acts in a manner that contradicts those three characteristics (e.g. brazen cruelty of the sort going on in much of the Arab world today), we are advised to look into his lineage, and if we look hard enough, we will find non-Jewish ancestry.
Do you agree with what he said then?
What the Prophet said in Devarim 31: 27 & 29 contradicts Rabbi Lior's assertions regarding genes. If it were down to genes only, there would no need for the law. It would be enough to be born Jewish. Why are the laws there to follow then?
27 For I know thy rebellion, and thy stiff neck; behold, while I am yet alive with you this day, ye have been rebellious against the LORD; and how much more after my death?
29 For I know that after my death ye will in any wise deal corruptly, and turn aside from the way which I have commanded you; and evil will befall you in the end of days; because ye will do that which is evil in the sight of the LORD, to provoke Him through the work of your hands.'
The above verses prove that "genetically Jewish" Jews would be sinners, and not “bashful and purveyors of good deeds”
Even the man (Paul of Tarsus) who led much of the world to paganism and idolatry, (which is what Pauline Christianity became from the monotheistic religion of Jesus), was a Jew thus violating the most important law. It wasn’t Paul’s genes that led him to paganism it was his mind and brain.
How does Rabbi Lior claim that "genetic Jews" have non Jewish genes, when it was foretold by his Prophet that most "genetic Jews" would not be “bashful and purveyors of good deeds”?
@ Chana, Shy Guy and NormanF
Thank you for not responding to my questions regarding Rabbi Lior’s statements. One is left wondering whether silence is consent, or embarrasment.
As for you Shy Guy, you take pot shot’s then disappear. Clearly you have no HONOUR to not return to that thread. What’s the matter, too ashamed? Can’t you concede defeat like a man?
Coward. Or better yet “Stupid Jew”!!
Chayma,
You are reading things into the statement I quoted that aren't there.
The rabbis never said that genetically pure Jews are perfectly behaved and don't need laws. No human is perfect. Every human has his or her flaws.
What the statement means is that there are certain types of flaws that are not characteristic of Jews (for example, sadistic cruelty toward other people), and if someone has those flaws, their lineage ought to be checked because there is probably an issue.
Shy Guy
Glicksberg's examination of the original trial evidence, loaned to him from Israel's national archives, was a shock to Glicksberg. You'll be shocked, too.
The only shock there is the claim that President Rabin was shot before Yygl Amir shot him.
This DVD film, "An unclosed case" does not explain why Yygl Amir ADMITS himself, that he did it with his brother. I mean one can set up one man, but a man and his brother? and Yygl had tried and failed before to murder Rabin?
INTENT AND WILL = premeditated murder, tried and failed at least twice. Doesn't that count for anything with you? The signal from God didn't come till the 3rd attempt. These are Amir's own words. No number of DVD's or "unclosed case investigations" can change that fact.
These are his own words, and he is perfectly sane.
Therefore you are not making an iota of sense, unless you can explain why this DVD has any relevence when Yygl is taking credit for something he didn't do.
Do you know how to answer direct questions? because you never do. You skulk away when confronted with hard facts.
I bet you don't respond to this, thus proving how impotent your pathetic case is.
Again, straigh question:
Why is Amir taking the blame for the murder, bragging he has no regrets, and that God gave him the green light, after failing to kill Rabin twice before?
and whatever you do, don't bring another DVD, film, fairystory, whatever!
Chayma,
http://israelmatzav.blogspot.com/2006/11/ynet-tries-to-figure-out-why-yigal.html
http://israelmatzav.blogspot.com/2006/10/how-yitzchak-rabin-was-murdered-what.html
"By the way, it's not nice to blackmail pedophile Yigal Amir caught on a morals charge "in flagrante delicto" to carry out your dirty work and shoot blank cartidges. Aren't closing police files and blackmail criminal offenses in Israel?
Amir, from a religious family, was willing to take a murder rap rather than having anyone in his immediate family know his dark secret. How low can you stoop?"
Read the whole thing.
Carl
Carl
Thank you, I read those links and followed some of the other links too. In all honesty, they’re full of holes so big elephants could walk through.
Just to highlight one such blooper, neither Yygl Amir, nor his wife requested the x ray files. A lawyer did, on his own behalf, not their’s, they knew nothing about it as Yygls wife confirms:
Court: Don't give Rabin's X-rays to Yigal Amir
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3310494,00.html
Amir's wife Larissa Trimbobler said in response to Ynet: "This is not the petition submit by Amir. Neither he nor I signed. Halevy called me a number times and said that he wants to submit a petition on the issue, but I have no idea who he is. He presented himself as a lawyer who wants to deal with the issue."
How do we know this lawyer (Halevy) who wanted the xray files wasn’t just acting on behalf of someone who wanted to discredit the official version and make a conspiracy seem credible? Why didn’t he get permission from Rabin’s family? The court were right to refuse. He needed Rabin’s heir’s permission, either his wife or children would have to agree. The court wouldn’t have refused then. :
But the obvious holes in the stories aside, there are two reasons why these conspiracies are unlikely to be true,.
1.) There is no need for Shabak to manufacture a threat against the Israeli right wing extremists. They exist. We all know that. Kahanists for example. They call for the death of those who want to cede territory or make peace with or recognise Palestine. They want borders from the river to the sea and would go on the offensive if they could to get them. Yygl Amir, tried to get a Rabbi’s sanction for his assasination of Rabin, using this religious law, but none gave it to him. Presumeably, the Rabbi’s feared the government. So Yygl Amir decided for himself, that when God gave him the sign he would do it. He got that sign on his third attempt.
Cedeing Jewish land classifies the giver (head of state here, for example Rabin) as a "din rodef" thus a legit target for assasination under this law, ("law of the pursuer"). Anyone classified as such has to be killed. It’s not murder then.
I’ve seen many people on the Israeli right, declare traitor Jews as legit targets to be killed. So I need no proof. Shabak did not need to manufacture a threat. The Jewish Taliban is very much a reality.
2.) The second reason is the even more astonishing claim that Yygl Amir was blackmailed for being a peodophile? What does Yygl Amir himself have to say now, that this is no longer a secret then? He would now have confessed, since everyone knows now that he was a peodophile and he took the rap. But he hasn’t.
Besides, the reason is absolutely riduculous. Peodophila, abhorrent as it is does not equal murder, which is the worst sin. Even his religious community, would rather see him as a peodophile than a murderer, so why would he take the rap? I’m sure Amir must have know that, assuming the peodophile charge is true, when there isn’t a shred of evidence. If Shabak wanted to kill Rabin, they could have done it easily without help from Amir.
do you believe that if Netanyahu cedes territory he should be declared a din rodef" ? This is where, the likes of Rabbi Lior would like to go, if they didn’t fear the secular government’s reaction. He was arrested to stop incitement.
Carl, Can I suggest something? How about you create a poll or something here and ask this question. It will be interesting to see the results.
Would you support it yourself for example? ;)
On second thoughts, forget about creating the poll, being in Israel, I wouldn’t want you arrested for incitement.. :)
Post a Comment
<< Home